Dr. Tim Tenneriello started as the Principal of a low-performing charter school with teachers who'd been in classrooms longer than he'd been alive. He had no blueprint, just the weight of 55 people looking to him for answers he didn't have yet. Four years later, they were the top-performing school in the network. Then he ran multiple schools. Then the whole network. He bought the company with no family money and no connections, just seven months of obsessing over how to find $4 million he didn't have. He sold it and got into wealth management.
July 24, 2026
How He Beat Back Imposter Syndrome | Tim Tenneriello
On this episode of Talk Real Shift, we covered:
→ How to survive the "temporary period of incompetence" every new role brings
→ Why imposter syndrome is just a signal that you're growing, and how to beat it back
→ The DISC profile that showed Tim he has zero natural tendency to care about people, and what he did about it
→ How to buy a business when you have no money and nobody in your life who's ever done it
→ Why letting your team fail on purpose is one of the most important things you can do as a leader
Thank you Tim for being as honest about the hard parts as with the wins!.
0:00 - Intro
1:00 - Dr. Tim's background: from classroom discipline to charter school principal
5:15 - Getting the doctorate and MBA
6:19 - Imposter syndrome at every level
9:00 - Building a network by saying yes
10:36 - When saying no is the right call: priorities vs. ambition
13:08 - Buying a company with no money and no connections
18:20 - How to earn trust fast: start with the small, visible wins
20:05 - Leadership clarity: vision, focus, and avoiding shiny objects
23:14 - The generational wealth transfer and opportunity in M&A
27:46 - What it actually takes: work, luck, and the preparation that earns it
38:05 - Where it went wrong: the transactional years and the shift toward people
44:45 - The DISC profile, the "I have no S" moment, and learning to lead intentionally
52:39 - Building teams from scratch at every stop, and why that worked
58:45 - Advice to 25-year-old Tim
1:02:11 - On luck vs. preparation, and five graduate degrees
1:07:03 - Final advice: build great people and then get out of their way
[Speaker 0]
Where your mind takes you is where you will go.
[Speaker 1]
It truly is just figuring it out, 'cause nobody handed you a guidebook. There was nobody that
you could turn to and be like, "How do I go get $4,000,000 ?"
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. You have the ability to drastically impact someone's life.
[Speaker 1]
People are either gonna tire you or they're gonna inspire you.
[Speaker 0]
Put great people around you and then invest in helping make them better. It makes you want to
be a better leader. That's what growth is, how quickly you can get out of your area of
incompetence and get to a place where you're competent. But typically, if you do that, you're
just gonna find yourself in another spot where you're-
[Speaker 1]
And another growth opportunity.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Talk real shit.
[Speaker 2]
Backbone people, that's the gift.
[Speaker 2]
This is your seat, take your shift.
[Speaker 1]
So Dr. Tim, welcome.
[Speaker 0]
Thank you.
[Speaker 1]
Uh, the good doctor's in the house.
[Speaker 0]
The good doctor's in the house.
[Speaker 1]
[laughs] So you have such an interesting background, and that's where I wanna start.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]Can you guide me through how you've become who you are today?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, wonderful. Um, yeah, so at a very, very high level, um, I started out my career in
education. Uh, from the time I was in college,
[Speaker 0]
started working at a, a school in the Flint area, working with discipline, like student
management, dean of students type role, which was very interesting, 'cause at, at 1st I was
with high school kids and I was 19 and they were 18. [laughs]
[Speaker 1]
So you were basically still in high school.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. It was-
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
It was definitely a, a weird dynamic. So quickly they were like, "Hey, you need to go down to
the middle school rung," um, which made a lot more sense. And then I kind of spent a lot of
time there. So finished college, ended up getting a job as a, like an assistant principal at a
school up in Saginaw.
[Speaker 0]
Bounced around from there to became a principal of a charter school in Lansing. Um, so that
was probably the first time I really felt like I took on, like, my 1st job that I wasn't-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... really qualified for or prepared for. So I'm 26. I, I'd taught maybe a year or 2, was an
assistant principal.
[Speaker 0]
And you have teachers that have been teaching longer than I've been alive, right? So I'm... And
I am now like, "Hey, here's your building of 55 people."
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
Um, they're all looking to you. I, I'll never forget the time I sat in my 1st meeting and everybody
in the table, this discussion's going on, and everybody just, like, turned and looked at me. And I
remember like, "Oh, you're... I have to make this decision."
[Speaker 1]
I... Right. It's, it's on you, right?
[Speaker 0]"This is my thing now."
[Speaker 1]
You're the boss.
[Speaker 0]
So, um, and to add a layer onto that, we were really, at the time coming in, they were a really
low performing school. So we were told, um, about 2 weeks after I took the job, if we didn't turn
our academic performance around by the next school year, they were gonna close the school
down.
[Speaker 0]
So for me, I'm like, "I'm 26. I have a daughter on the way. I can't have a, a closed school on my
record."
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And so, long story short, 4 years later, we were the highest performing school in our network's
portfolio of schools. Um, and a big part of that I, I, I learned was people and processes. And so
how do you develop people and how do they fit into the processes that you have as a, as an
organization? So from that place, it was like, "Hey, you're doing this at one school. Can you do it
at 4 or 5 schools?" So I became a superintendent, started doing that. Quickly had some success
there. They said, "Hey, why don't you... Why don't you come do this at the network level?" So
came and did it at the network level and pretty quickly realized, like, "Why am I, why am I
working for somebody else?" Like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm.
[Speaker 0]
So I, I began to make that, like, entrepreneurial leap from, you know, I'm an employee here to,
uh, I approached our owner of the company at the time and said, "Hey, if I can buy this from
you, are... would you be interested in letting me try?"
[Speaker 1]
And were they, were they, like, selling? Did you know they were selling?
[Speaker 0]
So I knew that there was a level of, um... She was one of the original founders.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
done-
Been doing this work for a long time. And was just... I, I knew that she was kind of ready to be
[Speaker 1]
Mm
[Speaker 0]... but nobody had really put in front of her, like, a path to be done. So in all my wisdom, I'm
like, "I'll figure it out," right? The, the guy with no money as an educator, like, "I'll figure out-
[Speaker 1]
You got it
[Speaker 0]
... a way to buy this company for you."
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And so it took about 6 or 7 months, but put a deal together that made sense and we were able
to do it. Um, had some good success. We 4X'd the company over the next 3 years.
[Speaker 1]
Wow.
[Speaker 0]
Um, was able to sell that. Then got into wealth management from there. Um, really as a path, I
was looking to just find another business to scale, um, and sell. And so I ended up in the wealth
management space. Um, similarly over a couple year period, we took the company's assets
from about 450 1000000 to about 750 1000000.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
Um, and so... And then were able to flip up into a larger company. So now I'm working for a
large RIA, um, out of the Northeast, but we have a presence all over the country where we help,
um, small business owners, uh, executives, and really, you know, America's retiree with how do
we help manage your money from investments to financial planning. Uh, and then we provide a
whole suite of services for small businesses with their, um, 401Ks and their employee benefits,
things like that. And then we help with some mergers and acquisitions work, so if somebody's
looking to sell or...
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
So for me, that kind of hits home 'cause that's how I kind of got here into the space, was having
bought and sold a couple things. And it's super complex at times, but it's super fulfilling when
it... you can get all the pieces to land. So yeah, that's like a high-
[Speaker 1]
High level.
[Speaker 0]
That's how, that's me. That's how I do.
[Speaker 1]
Right, high level. But, like, let's go, let's go back.[Speaker 0]
[laughs] Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Because you didn't just get... You didn't just start off as, as a principal, right?
[Speaker 0]
Sure.
[Speaker 1]
I mean, you, you have your doctorate.
[Speaker 0]
Yep. Earned my doctorate at some point through that,
[Speaker 0]
and my MBA. So it was, you know, it was a lot of things.
[Speaker 1]
And you went back and got your MBA-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... after your doctorate.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Which is normally, isn't it like flipped-flops?
[Speaker 0]
The opposite or y- most people, when they get done with their doctorate are like, "I'm done with
school forever."
[Speaker 1]
Right. But not you.
[Speaker 0]
And I think for me it was like, I, I kind of wanted to beat that away in my head. Like, I never
want to be done learning, so fine, let me just go do my doctorate real quick and knock this thing
out. So I went to the University of Kansas. Uh, I was sick of giving the University of Michigan my
money. I was like, "Let me go somewhere else. I'll get my MBA." So-
[Speaker 1]
Interesting.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, that all kind of, you know, the education side, I think it's just part of the growth of, like,
how do you continually learn to get better and then take the things I'm learning and apply it
into real life. Um, and that I think was a really big,[Speaker 0]
uh, driver of what happened to me at the school level when I was a principal-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... was I was taking things I was learning and applying them in real life to... And I watched it
affect the lives of our kids, the lives of our teachers. And as everybody kinda got to be masters
of their own craft, it was like, we're doing this because we're all learning and applying what
we're learning. And I think then that just grew as I became a business owner. Like, how do I
grow in this and apply what I'm learning here, um, and get the people around me to do the
same thing? And I think as we've been able to do that kind of at each stop, it's been pretty
successful.
[Speaker 1]
That's unbelievable. So
[Speaker 1]
you start off in education. You have a doctorate.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
You go back, you get your MBA. You buy, you sell a few companies. You know, just normal stuff-
[Speaker 0]
Casual, casual stuff
[Speaker 1]
... that you do on a, on a, on a weekend, right? Throughout all of this,
[Speaker 1]
have you experienced imposter syndrome as you're, you're navigating these different avenues?
'Cause you-- I mean, do, do you know anybody that's bought and sold a company personally in
your life before you did it?
[Speaker 0]
No. Um, so yeah, I feel like at, at each stop, there's always this, like, temporary period of in--
like, um, incompetence, where, like, okay, I'm promoted to being a principal. And it was, again,
that time you're sitting around the table and going like, "I don't know what to do here."
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
The one thing I learned, uh, I'm trying to remember where I learned it from, but it was, uh, you
know, the saying like, "Keep your mouth shut so peop- people can think you're stupid, but they
don't know it," or something like that.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm. Okay.[Speaker 0]
And so that's kind of-
[Speaker 1]
Fake it till you make it, essentially.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. Like, and so a lot of times what I would do is I would be sitting around that table and go...
I would just stay really quiet and I'd be like, "Thank everybody for their opinions," and like, "I
need to spend some time thinking about this." And my spending time thinking about it meant
I'm gonna go back to my office and Google-
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
... what the hell you guys are talking about. [laughs]
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And then once I do that, or then I make the phone call, and ha- having, like, mentors in your life
can help too, where it's like, "Hey, I'm encountering this. What do you think?"
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
But I think the thing that I learned...
[Speaker 0]
At each stop, there's always this like, "Oh, I don't know if I can do this." When I changed from
education into wealth management, it's like, "Can I-- Okay, that worked there, but can it work
here?"
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
"And did I get over my skis on this? And maybe I'm just-- maybe I, I should live in the non-profit
education sector." So you have all those same, like, negative thoughts that will erode away at
you.
[Speaker 0]
Um, but I think over time, as I've learned to deal with them better, like, oh, this is just, like, part
of this learning process.
[Speaker 0]
And that so few things are, like, an emergency, where it's like you, you can have time to sit
back and really think about what it is that we're trying to accomplish. What is the bigger
picture? What's the thing that's kinda farther out ahead? Um, and I think as you can get really
clear on that for yourself, you can then get clear on it for your team.[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
And that is the way that you kinda beat back the imposter syndrome, 'cause then you're just
focused on, okay, what are we trying to do and how do I help get the people around me to that
ultimate end?
[Speaker 0]
And then I think as a result of that, you know, you kinda have these mastery experiences. It's
like, okay, I've, I recognize this feeling. It's okay. I'm gonna get through it. And if you don't have
them personally, then you can have, like, vicarious mastery experiences where I know
somebody else has bought this and been successful at it. Now I just need to tap into that brain
power.
[Speaker 1]
people.
How did you build your network? You talked about when you didn't know, you tapped into other
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
You know, how, how did you build that network? Who was your network?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, that's a great question. [clears throat] I think as, as going through the process of building,
[Speaker 0]
um, it's not re-- uh, you know, I just, I've always kinda lived in, like, I don't say no to
opportunity. So it's like, you know, even coming on this podcast, we were sitting out and talking
through, uh, like how I got here. Like, how did-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... you find me and I find you?
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And it's just, like, any opportunity that's out there, I've always kind of been a yes person. So,
"Oh, great. Yeah, let's meet and connect." And then when I'm there, it's just, uh, like a natural
inquisitiveness of like, "Hey, who are you and how did you get where you are?"
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
But I think I... So in that process, I think I just spent a lot of time around, you know, in the
education space, like seasoned educational leaders. And I was always kind of fascinated withthe leadership aspect of it all. So I was, I would spend time trying to float up to the leader
space. Like, okay, the company I'm working for, like, that guy owns it. They're the leadership
team.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
I'm young. If I'm just in their orbit, I will, maybe through osmosis, just learn whatever.
[Speaker 1]
Because you are the company that you keep.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, exactly.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And so it's easy to, you know... But you have to kinda make a choice of like, sure, all my friends
at my age were doing specific other things that were maybe, like, what, 22 and 24 year olds
do?
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And I'm attending board meetings-
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
... and I'm attending, you know, just I'm putting myself in the environment to soak in the
knowledge. That way, when the opportunity arises, it was still terrifying, but there's like a, a
leap that you're willing to take. Like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... yes, I'm gonna go give that a shot. Um, and then I'll figure it out on the way. And so I think
that having a mentality that you're just saying yes to things
[Speaker 0]
gives you more opportunity for, like, expansion.
[Speaker 1]
I think that's absolutely fair.
[Speaker 1]
I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk some real shift with you now.[Speaker 0]
Sure. Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Can you always just say yes to things? Because in my life, I found that there's times where I've
had to say no to things and accept the sacrifice of I'm not gonna have that career growth or tr-
trajectory that perhaps I know I can with my ceiling,
[Speaker 1]
because I need to focus on other things because those are my priorities.
[Speaker 0]
Sure.
[Speaker 1]
So have you had to say no to things?
[Speaker 0]
Um, that's a great question,
[Speaker 0]
because I do think it comes down to a, a, it's a priorities thing, right?
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
Like, and I've tried to live in, like, I want my world to be as big as it can be. And so I'm gonna
just keep saying yes. Um, you know, then as my kids have gotten older, that's definitely added
a little bit of a wrinkle for me, where it's like, okay- These are competing priorities for my-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... time and attention now.
[Speaker 0]
Um, but in some ways I combat that by trying to pull them into my orbit a little bit more. Like,
this is what I'm trying to do, and this is what I'm trying to h- I, I want our family to have and the
life that we wanna live. Um, and that helps. It, it buys maybe a little extra margin, but there's
definitely, um... You know, right now [laughs] for me it's probably has been not going back to
school.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
So when I finish my MBA... I, I've always wanted to do law school. Like, and I sh- I should have
done it, but... And I've thought about it a lot, and that's probably the thing right now that I'm
just like, I don't think I can allocate the time or energy to it.
[Speaker 1]Right.
[Speaker 0]
Um, [smacks lips] but I also think where I'm headed in business, it's like,
[Speaker 0]
I think it'd be so great. And so that's where it's, there's conflict in me-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... of like, I think this could open up a whole different side of the world to me. [inhales deeply]
And that's okay. Maybe I'll get there eventually. But for now, it's not the right time. So just
maybe a long way to answer your question of, yeah, it comes up. Um, but I think when you
keep your priorities in line-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... I think that's a good place to, to be.
[Speaker 1]
Right. And there's nothing... There's no right or wrong way to prioritize anything, right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
What works for one individual, um, might not work for the next. But only you know what's
perfect for you and your personal life-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... and your career growth and, you know, if you've got family, what, what that looks like with
your family. [inhales deeply] Um, let's go back to talking about imposter syndrome.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
So we're... Now you're in a whole new area.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
And you're working for a company, correct me if I'm wrong, you bought and then sold a
company-[Speaker 0]
Relatively quick, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. To the-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... to the existing company that you work for.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Okay. What is that like in that space and in that room?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. It's, you know, it, it's this... A lot of the same emotions are there, 'cause it's like, okay, I
had... I bought into a smaller firm in an industry I'm not familiar with, so I felt a lot of that
imposter syndrome w- moving through it. Trying to, you know, meet and talk with financial
advisors and it's like, "Oh man, I don't... I've never been a financial advisor."
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
"How... I'm, I'm trying to help you grow."
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And I think it's, you know, again, when I tie it all the way back to when I was a principal working
with students when I hadn't really taught, um, what I quickly learned was people don't... People
just don't care. They wanna know that you can help them get where they're trying to go.
[Speaker 1]
Mm.
[Speaker 0]
So when I came in as a principal and I had a teacher who was struggling with little Johnny who
won't ever sit still or stop disrupting class,
[Speaker 0]
they didn't... They weren't, like, holding up my resume and saying like, "When did you have a
Johnny?" It's like, if I can help you with Johnny-
[Speaker 1]
That's all I care about
[Speaker 0]... like, cool. Thank you. And we can move on.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And I learned that pretty quickly. So, like, that imposter syndrome in me was saying, "I've never
done this. I can't do it." So I'm able to draw back on that experience and say, "Okay, instead of
getting lost in my own head of, like, how can I help this advisor and they're gonna think that I'm
not qualified, but if I just can hear their problem,"
[Speaker 0]
which almost in every advisor's case is time management. Like, "I don't have enough time to do
all the things I need to do."
[Speaker 0]
Or prospecting, like, "Where do I find new leads and how do I get in front of new people?" If I
can help you solve those 2 problems, you don't really care what my background is.
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
It's just like-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... "That's awesome. We've solved the 2 problems we need to solve."
[Speaker 0]
So we can work through that. Well, then as we flip up to a larger, bigger company, it's like, you
know, everybody in the room is just a little bit more... They're just a little more impressive, if
that makes sense.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
It's like, "Oh man, you've been... You've had these big roles and you've done these things, and
do I belong here?" And are... You're gonna realize I haven't been in this industry for very long.
So you kinda still have all that stuff swirling. But to me, I think it's the indication of growth. And
as you grow, you should always grow into more uncomfortable places, 'cause that's what
growth is.
[Speaker 0]
And then it's how quickly... I think what defines people's success in that is how quickly you can
get out of your area of incompetence and get to a place where you're competent. But typically,
if you do that, you're just gonna find yourself in another spot where you're-
[Speaker 1]
And another growth opportunity.[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
'Cause you, you've, you've risen to the occasion.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And they know, "If I give you this, then can you handle this?" And it's like, "Uh, sure. Let me
figure it out."
[Speaker 1]
And that's, that's what it's like out on the floor, right?
[Speaker 0]
Sure.
[Speaker 1]
When you're in those ops, manufacturing, logistics roles and you start off as a floor supervisor,
most people start off as a floor supervisor with... I mean, you're fresh outta college.
[Speaker 0]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
I know that's how I started, right? I had no business [laughs]-
[Speaker 0]
Managing the floor
[Speaker 1]
... managing a team of people.
[Speaker 0]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Right? I had no idea what I was doing. It w- you know, my 1st role managing people, it was
during one of the, um, probably the 2nd largest recall in-
[Speaker 0]
Okay
[Speaker 1]
... OEM history, right? And we're shipping out this little component, and I have an entire team of
people that report to me that I'm now responsible for their, their lives.
[Speaker 0]Livelihood.
[Speaker 1]
Right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Because I'm, I'm responsible that they go home safe. And not only am I responsible for they go
home safe, but on the customer side, I'm responsible for getting this widget out the door on
time, in the right quantity, in the right quality-
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
[laughs] around-
... to the right customer so that they can go on living their lives and driving their families
[Speaker 0]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... and, and executing everything that they need to do. And I'm like, "I have no..." But you... To
your point, you just... You figure it out, right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
You work hard.
[Speaker 1]
So what would you say to people that are in those environments where they're like, "I don't
belong," or, "I don't belong at the next level."
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
What do you, what do you say to them?
[Speaker 0]
You should probably read Jon Acuff's book on soundtracks.
[Speaker 1]
Okay. [laughs]
[Speaker 0]
That's what I would say. So they're... You know, the idea is that we have these stories that we
tell ourselves, right? And you... The soundtrack in your head could be, "I'm not enough, I'm not
good enough, I'm not able, I'm not capable." And that's just a bad soundtrack. Like,[Speaker 0]
because ultimately where your mind takes you is where you will go.
[Speaker 1]
Mm.
[Speaker 0]
And so I think as you shift that thinking-
[Speaker 1]
The mentality, yeah
[Speaker 0]
... and go, like...
[Speaker 0]
Even just adding, like, "I don't know what to do yet." It's like it-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
not there yet."
... you're changing your expectation that like, "Oh no, I'm, I'm on a path to figure it out. I'm just
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
Um- And I think those little, like, shifts in the way you approach the world and approach the
work that you're trying to do, and I think that applies whether, yeah, you're on the floor,
whether you're the owner of the company who's trying to figure out, can we open up another
line? Can we-- should we move into a different space? Is this space drying up? Do we need to
open up, figure out something else? There's so many ways that that can kind of-- that little seed
of doubt or negativity-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... can kinda just erode away at you.
[Speaker 0]
And so I think that, like, really shifting the way you think about things. Um, and then I think in a
very practical way,
[Speaker 0]
you know, part of it is kind of evaluating where you are in the current moment and saying,
what's, like, the-- is there anything that's maybe low-hanging fruit? Like, a really high reward,
but really low risk decision that I can implement right now-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm[Speaker 0]
... that can get some buy-in to me really quickly.
[Speaker 1]
It earns the trust of the team.
[Speaker 0]
Right off the bat.
[Speaker 1]
It does. And it doesn't have to be anything big.
[Speaker 0]
And it's nothing crazy. So for me, a perfect example, I'm a, a, you know, principal. I hated-- I, I
went out and I watched dismissal one day, and it was a disaster, right? I'm a couple of weeks in
the job, I'm watching how dismissal goes,
[Speaker 0]
and I just said, "You know what? I don't know what to do, but I know I can make dismissal
better."
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
And so I told the team, like, "Hey, you know, 2 o'clock hits, we're gonna take the next 45
minutes before dismissal, and we're gonna drill dismissal." Like, kids have to walk. Kid-- we
gotta be in lines. We-- everything has to be orderly. We have to do this better. And I was just
like, "I know this might seem like a little thing, but I think when everybody sees the order that
we can kind of create out of chaos,
[Speaker 0]
I think they'll start to buy into other things that I'm saying over time."
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
'Cause everybody just kinda gave up. It was like, "No, dismissal's chaotic. It's just..." You know-
[Speaker 1]
It, it's the way it's always been
[Speaker 0]
... it's 20 minutes of crazy, and we'll figure it out.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
So I was able to do that, um, and it, and it, it played out exactly how I thought it would. Like, we
got to the place where a week later, everybody's like, "I can't believe this is this good. We-
we've never been able to do this." And then once that thought is there, it's like, well, what elsehave we always done that has been bad that we need to fix?
[Speaker 1]
Hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And now it's just, like, this marching process of-- and I think every business has that inside of it,
um, where it's like, okay, what's the little sand in the shoe that we can, we can solve? And once
we solve that, now we just build, and it's building blocks to something better.
[Speaker 1]
I love that. It-- 'cause it is, right? It's, it's the small wins.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
And then you earn the trust of the team. And then once you earn the trust of your team, did
they start coming to you with ideas and thoughts?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. Um, yeah. [laughs] Probably too many, right? It's like now the-- it's been-
[Speaker 1]
The floodgates opened.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Ah, yeah.
[Speaker 0]
Um,
[Speaker 0]
but I think that's where then the vision piece has to align, because it's like there's, there's so
many opportunities to do all the different things-
[Speaker 1]
What do you go after now?
[Speaker 0]
... that if you're not laser-focused on, like, what are we trying to do-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... um, you can really start, like, chasing shiny objects that are your, like, squirrel moments
where it's just like everything is-
[Speaker 1]Hmm
[Speaker 0]
... important, and nothing is important then. And so I think if you're sitting in a seat of
leadership, whether that's mid-management or upper management,
[Speaker 0]
you have to be laser-focused on where we're headed and where we're trying to go collectively.
'Cause I think then that kinda orients people to the ideas that they might have. And if their
ideas can help us get there fa- better or faster-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... great, I'm all ears. If it has nothing to do with what we're doing, that's a great idea for
somebody else, not me. And then it, it's a way that I think you can prioritize your time so you
don't have to spend all this time managing-
[Speaker 1]
Being pulled
[Speaker 0]
... all these other things.
[Speaker 1]
Right. So you, you work through that imposter syndrome.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
A lot of it's just changing your mentality. You're earning the trust of your team.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Right? What's next?
[Speaker 0]
I mean, I think then you-- it really just comes down to, in general, like, an execution thing. Like,
[Speaker 0]
we've-- you have yourself kind of set, your team is set, and now it's we have to get into the
grind of actually executing. And so I think I look back at my career and think
[Speaker 0]
there were these points where... I mean, certainly I can stand here today and look back and see
how it all tied together. But in the moment, as I was stepping into each kind of adventure-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm[Speaker 0]
... in, in my mind wasn't like, oh, in 3 years I'm gonna sell, and then I'm gonna buy this, and
then I'm gonna do this. It's just you have to start getting into the... You know, I knew in order
for me to have any potential career, right at the onset of being a principal, I-- this school has to
turn around.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
The only way it does that is if we start to execute on what we say we're trying to do.
[Speaker 0]
And now I think that's, you know, the vision's clear, and now it's... And really, that execution is
where,
[Speaker 0]
you know, working hard to develop your people. So whatever it is, whatever skill set they need
to accomplish their mission, how do you help them become the best at it?
[Speaker 0]
And then,
[Speaker 0]
um, in addition to the growth of those people, then you have to, um, work hard to pull in the
resources that they need to do the job well. And then you're kind of just blocking and tackling to
make that all kinda happen for them. Um, and so I think that, from a leadership perspective,
that's really an important piece of develop your people, give them the path, and then kinda get
out of the way and let them do it.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah, removing the obstacles. And I think that's-- like, that's some real shift talk, right? As a
leader, half of what you should be doing is, is you're promoting your, your team-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... but you're removing the obstacles that allow them to be successful. Because a lot of times
those, those obstacles are what's preventing them.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Um, so speaking of, of obstacles, I've heard something before that when we're talking about
the, the manufacturing space, particularly mid small market manufacturers, that there is a
generational flip that's happening
[Speaker 1]
where people want to step away from their leadership roles-
[Speaker 0]Sure
[Speaker 1]
... from owning companies, but there's a deficit of people that are ready. I'm gonna say ready
with quotes, because in this conversation, you may be more ready than you realize, right-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... uh, to take over. And I think that's, you know, is that maybe possibly due to some of that
imposter syndrome? What do you, what are you seeing in the wealth management space?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. I think there's definitely, um,
[Speaker 0]
the intimidation factor of, like, can I take this on is certainly there.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And then you think of all the different moving parts, and I think it's just easy to let it be the type
of thing that you're just like, "Uh, maybe I'll do that someday," you know?
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
Um, and I think certainly we see that, you know, they call it... You know, they're, they're calling
it the great wealth transfer in general. So there's-
[Speaker 1]
Mm
[Speaker 0]
... you know, hundreds of trillions of dollars of assets, whether that's monetary assets or
business value, that's gonna transfer from, you know, the baby boomer generation down to Gen
X and millennials and, and, and everybody else.
[Speaker 0]
And so there's, there's a tremendous amount of opportunity there for everybody. Certainly on
the wealth side, there's a lot of opportunity to help people navigate that new kind of inherited
wealth. Um, but then I think certainly on the, in the business side, there's so much opportunity
if people who are ready to say, "Yep, I did my part. I've done this for 35 years. I'm ready to be
done."
[Speaker 0]
And I think if people are willing to step up and say, you know, "Hey, I'm, I'm interested and-
[Speaker 1]
Right[Speaker 0]
... I'll figure it out and let me take the risk and, and kind of put myself out there," there's so
much opportunity then for the next generation to really pick that up and, and really drive, you
know, legacy wealth for themselves, for their families, for the people around them. Um,
[Speaker 0]
and it's, it's fascinating. And so I think in my seat that I sit in where I, you know, can help do
some M&A consulting, uh, uh, you know, certainly for the people who are looking to exit, it's
like, how do we find you the best value on your exit? But also, you know, for them, what I think
we're also finding is it's not just a money play. They're not just-
[Speaker 1]
They care about it.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. It's like, "This is my baby."
[Speaker 1]
They care-- And they care about the team.
[Speaker 0]
"I built this." Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
And those are their, those are their people.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Right? It's their livelihoods. It's-- They don't wanna just walk away from it and be like-
[Speaker 0]
Pass it off to private equity and it's like-
[Speaker 1]
... you're done
[Speaker 0]
... you know, do whatever you're gonna do. And so I think, you know, coming in as an M&A
consultant, um, or advisor where you're able to, to help navigate... Are, are we talking about
some kind of internal structure where there's-
[Speaker 1]
Mm
[Speaker 0]
... gonna be, we're gonna pivot this to be employee-owned, and that's how you're gonna get
your exit? Or is there somebody on the team that we can help facilitate, you know, just like me
where it's like, "Man, I don't have any money. I don't know how to find money, but I'd love to do
this if I can do that."
[Speaker 0]Well, then it's just now it's like, hey, how do we help facilitate this and make this in a friendly
transaction? How do you take something out to market and just say, "Nope, you know what,
I've, I've built my thing and I'm gonna take this out to the market and somebody in the
marketplace will just buy me." And so I think having really strong advisors, um, can help
navigate all those things. And then people who can get granular in, in terms of your industry
and space. So, um, you know, especially here in Michigan, I look at, you know, all the
manufacturing jobs and suppliers, automotive suppliers, all the-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... people that are here and all the work that they do.
[Speaker 0]
You know, it's really hard work, and it's like, you know, our, our most recent, you know, political
environment doesn't necessarily help when there's-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... tariffs and it's this cost and-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 0]
... how does that gum up the supply chain? So, you know, forget the politics of it all, but it's like
the practicality then comes into if all of a sudden I can't afford to pay for this or somebody else
has got to, it may have people just saying, "You know what, let me... I just wanna get out. I'm
just ready to be done. I've, I've done my thing." Um, and I think reaching out and having strong,
uh, supporting actors that can help facilitate that in a way that's thoughtful, I think is, is an
important thing.
[Speaker 1]
What would you say to somebody that, like myself, right? Like, I'm just regular old Devon, right?
I, I-
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
... don't have the assets to go out and buy a company. Um, I might not have, and I don't-- I
shouldn't say I might not. I don't have 30 years of experience, right? But I, I have a fair amount
and a wide variety of experience. I like-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... at the time, I-- And I still think of my career kind of like this triangle, right, where I worked all
of these really rapid, quick movements that gave me a unique perspective. But what do you sayto somebody like, "Hey, you should consider
[Speaker 1]
taking on something like this." Forget your imposter syndrome. Maybe they do have 30 years of
experience.
[Speaker 0]
Sure.
[Speaker 1]
How-- What, what's your words of encouragement?
[Speaker 0]
I mean, really, like, if you want it bad enough, that's... The path is there.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
Um, it really is like, um...
[Speaker 0]
I think it's one of the things that makes America as great as it is. It's like
[Speaker 0]
y- if you're willing to work at it and, um... And again, I think that's where it's, it's expanding your
network some, because I think there are people in the world
[Speaker 0]
that help connect people with people to make things happen.
[Speaker 1]
They're our deck connectors.
[Speaker 0]
Right. And so I think some of that just becomes, okay, this is what I'm trying to get to. I'm-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
I need the money to go buy the business. And then I think as you start... You know, for me, I
just went to bankers. Okay, like, they have the money, right?
[Speaker 1]
They do.
[Speaker 0]
Let me talk to-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah.
[Speaker 0]But I can't tell you how many times I'd get in the process with a bank and then, you know, we're
3 months in and all of a sudden they're sharing something that they probably should have
shared at the beginning and the deal can't go now.
[Speaker 1]
Mm.
[Speaker 0]
But going through iterations of that, what I found was every time I went to the, the next banker,
well, now I knew I gotta ask this question, like, upfront.
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
And then all of a sudden-
[Speaker 1]
You learn. You keep learning.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. You're just... And all of a sudden it whittled down from a 3-month thing to a 3-week thing
to a 2-week thing to a one-week thing to all of a sudden, I know all the pieces of this. I've spent
the time learning how these lending programs work and what I need to do to leverage this or
that. What can I do from an internal deal construct standpoint to make it happen that the seller
is getting what they want, but it's in terms that work for me too?
[Speaker 0]
Um, and then now I... And I have the partners that I can lean on and say, "Okay, all right,
Banker X from whatever bank-"
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
"... like, this is all the resources I have.
[Speaker 0]
Am I good? Like, am- is it good enough?"
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And amazingly, you can find. I mean, a guy who had no money and you, like, you, uh, could get
1000000s of dollars to go do something where it's like, if you would've told me at the beginning
of that year, like, "You need to come up with 4 1000000 dollars," I would've been like, "I, I have
no clue."
[Speaker 1]
Good luck, right?
[Speaker 0]I have no clue.
[Speaker 0]
You know, my dad's a pastor-
[Speaker 1]
And how, how do... Sorry, sorry, what does your dad do?
[Speaker 0]
[laughs] My dad's a pastor, so it's not like we're, like, sitting on a trust fund somewhere.
[Speaker 1]
So you didn't come from, you didn't come from family money. You didn't come from-
[Speaker 0]
No, we just borrow and-
[Speaker 1]
Wow. Okay.
[Speaker 0]
You know, it was like, all right, it's, it is... I'll figure it out, you know? We'll, we'll see what we can
come up with.
[Speaker 1]
And it truly is just, just figuring it out, 'cause nobody handed you a guidebook. There was
nobody in your personal-
[Speaker 0]
No
[Speaker 1]
dollars?"
... life that you could turn to and be like, "H- h- how do I go do... How do I go get 4 1000000
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. Right. Nobody. That's not a real... That's not a thing. So, it, it's definitely, um... You know,
we just live in s- an age where there's so much information available-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... to us. And some of it is we don't know where to look for it. Um, but there is, there is a
tremendous opportunity of saying like, "Yeah, I'm gonna just put my mind to, like, this is the
thing I want and I'm gonna pursue it until..."
[Speaker 0]
You know, I was just d- deadly committed to, like, I'm gonna figure this out. And so e- it was... It
consumed my time for 7 months of how do I... I went to bed thinking about it, I woke up
thinking about it. It was just a constant-
[Speaker 1]You lived and breathed it.
[Speaker 0]
Lived and breathed it. Um,
[Speaker 0]
and the amount of people then that I tried to connect to, that all became dead ends, but all
those dead ends, like, led into the path that ultimately-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... you know, works.
[Speaker 1]
Right. And, and, and people... I mean, that's the same reason why you're here today-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... right?
[Speaker 0]
Totally.
[Speaker 1]
I mean, you met Kelly.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
And I met Kelly from meeting other people.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Right? And then here, here you are. Because we didn't know each other until you just-
[Speaker 0]
No, not at all
[Speaker 1]
... randomly filled out the guest form.
[Speaker 0]
No, filled out the form.
[Speaker 1]
And I was like, "Interesting." Right?[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
I was, you know... So it really is just building your network.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
Um, so you keep building your network. How do you know who to continue to invest time in and
who not to? 'Cause Kelly-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... Kelly taught me this saying that I absolutely love. She's like, "People are either gonna tire
you or they're gonna inspire you."
[Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah. I like that.
[Speaker 1]
Me too. Right? And so how do you prevent yourself from putting time and energy into people
that are, are tiring you, and how do you know how much to put into those that are inspiring
you?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. That, I, I think it's just like, uh...
[Speaker 0]
I think if genuine connections have to be mutual, right?
[Speaker 1]
Yeah, they do.
[Speaker 0]
And so I think it's if, if I'm trying to extract too much out of it, that person's gonna know, you
know?
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
Like, it, it's gonna cut off, 'cause it's like, this has no benefit to me. And I think that has to be
reciprocated, where it's like... For me, I always, I always kind of run through like a, is this
somebody I'd wanna have a beer with test.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]And if it, if it is, if you are, it's like, cool. Yeah, let's-
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
... whatever. Nothing may ever come from this, but at least I, somebody who I, I can genuinely
enjoy just sitting down, having a conversation about life.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And if we do that, you know, every now and then, like, that's cool. Or you just pick up, it's easy,
it's natural, it's... Um, and so I think that, for me, that's always kind of part of my litmus test of,
you know, people are fascinating and they're... Across so many different industries where it's
like maybe there isn't direct correlation between us and the work that we're doing,
[Speaker 0]
but is there stuff I can learn from you and your path that's just different and unique? I was
super fortunate when I was, you know, in my early 20s, when I was in that assistant principal
role, to spend some time overseas. We were part of a global network of schools,
[Speaker 0]
so we had... Um, I got to put on, like, a leadership conference for kids.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
So we'd bring 3 high schoolers from, you know, 70 of our schools all around the world into a city
in, in Europe. So... And then I got to s- hang out with them and, like, the adults from each
school. And I think that really was part of that eye-opening of, like, I'm sitting here at a, on a
rooftop in Athens talking to, you know,
[Speaker 0]
2 kids from Pakistan and a kid from Germany and a kid from England.
[Speaker 0]
And it's like,
[Speaker 0]
this is just unique to hear people's experiences and, like-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... understand that. And I think that kind of curiosity has just led me into my professional life
too, where, you know, I can meet someone and it's just like I'm genuinely curious about who
you are and what you do, and, like, what, what got you to where you are in life.
[Speaker 0]And then I think as I share my story, you know, a lot of times it's just like, "Man, that's fas-
that's inter- I can't believe you did that," and this.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And then
[Speaker 0]
inevitably there's just, like, a connection to business that shows up. Like, and I look at the world
that I live in now and it's like, you know, I can talk to any business owner and, "Can we help
with your employee benefits?" "Yes, we can." "Can I help you with your financial planning?"
"Yes, I can." And when I say I, like, I just have a team of people behind me who are great. So it's
easy to say, "Hey, let me connect you to-"
[Speaker 1]
So and so.
[Speaker 0]
"... you know, my buddy John or my buddy Sean or..." And they, they're, like, best in class at
what they do, and they'll help you a lot. And I love that I can connect the 2 of you in that. And
so I think that, to me, it's like now I get to fulfill some of my purpose of trying to help. Like, I just
wanna help people. So if I can help you get where you're trying to go, awesome. And if you're a
client, great. If you're an employee of mine, great. If you're... Like, ultimately, I think that's part
of why I was put on Earth, is to help people get where they're trying to go. And it's like I just
don't care where or what that looks like. I... That's what I'm always in pursuit of. So if I sit down
at the bar and I see the couple sit down next to me, "Hey, what's your story? Where are you
from? What are you doing? What are..." You know?
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And it just naturally turns into that. And, you know, it's cool now being in a, in an industry that
focuses on finances. Like, that's... It's so close to people's
[Speaker 0]
heart, you know?
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
Like, that's... Like, how am I gonna plan for my family or how am I gonna exit my business, or
all these things. And it's, it's really cool to be able to sit on this side of the table and figure out
how I can help. So that's a really cool thing.
[Speaker 2]
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[Speaker 1]
So you don't need a ton.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
You just need will, drive, ambition-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... sprinkle in some s- some tenacity.
[Speaker 0]
Some luck.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah.
[Speaker 0]
Maybe some luck. [laughs]
[Speaker 1]
There you go. Some luck. Luck, luck helps.
[Speaker 0]
You know, luck helps too. Um,
[Speaker 0]
and then, yeah, I think the recipe for that, and then I think, you know, genuinely trying to do
right by people. Like, you know, whether, whatever people's belief systems are, I mean, I think
as you do good, um, and you try to do good for others, like, that does come back. And, like, I
don't think it-- It doesn't-- it's not always one-to-one. It's not always the way that you think it
might come back, but it's-- I do think there's something really, um,
[Speaker 0]
you know, innate in the fact that, uh, if you're trying to help people, like-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... and do the right thing by people, that, that comes back to you. And so I think all those pieceskind of work together, um, 'cause if, if you're going into that and you wanna figure out a way to
buy that and you're trying to screw the person you're buying it from, or you just wanna make a
bunch of money and, like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... you're not in it for the-- you're not in the right head space around it all, like, I just don't think
the, you know, whether it's the universe or God or whoever, like-
[Speaker 1]
Whatever you believe in-
[Speaker 0]
... recognizes that
[Speaker 1]
... 'cause you believe in something, right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. Recognizes that, like, frequency that you're on as, as good. So, yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Good vibes in, good vibes out.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, I think so.
[Speaker 1]
I love that. I, you know, I'm-- I have a very similar, uh, mindset, right? If we just... If we do the
right things, the right things will eventually happen, to your point.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
It may not be in the way that we want or anticipate-
[Speaker 0]
Yep
[Speaker 1]
... or we planned, but it's not always... We can't-- We aren't the exact authors of our future.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
We get to kind of navigate our future, right? 'Cause our choices have consequences.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.[Speaker 1]
Some good, some bad.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Um,
[Speaker 1]
but we don't always get to fully kind of-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, just lay out the path
[Speaker 1]
... plan that out. Right.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Exactly. And you didn't lay out your pa-- I mean, you didn't plan on, on-
[Speaker 0]
Not even close. [laughs]
[Speaker 1]
But you just kept working. You said, "I wanna be the best. I need to turn my school around."
And that turned into, "Hey, there's an opportunity with-- to, to buy this company."
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
shift go wrong?
"And I wanna do this." And then it keeps leading you down, down this path. Where did some
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. [sighs] That's, um...
[Speaker 1]
I know, this is some hard-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. No, it's-
[Speaker 1]
This is, this is talk real shift.
[Speaker 0]
It is, it is. When I think of those pieces, um,
[Speaker 0]I- I think there's probably s- spaces along the way where I wasn't... [sighs] Um,
[Speaker 0]
that, like, ambition. So, like, I certainly had-- I've always had a lot of ambition.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And I think I, you-- I can look back and think of some of the turbulence that that created for
people along the way. Um,
[Speaker 0]
and I, like, I wish it wasn't so. So it's like,
[Speaker 0]
I could be very, um,
[Speaker 0]
transactional in whether it was transactional in relationships with people of, like, "I'm just trying
to get here." And I think especially early, early on, I, I was-- I lived in that space more than I do
now, um, where it's like, "I'm just trying to use you to get what I'm-- where, get where I'm trying
to go. And if I can help you, great, but it's not..." And I think that ultimately what I found was, as
I got to that point in life where it was like, I- I'm sitting at the top of what I thought I wanted-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... you know, from the time I was in the school space, I thought, "I wanna impact the most kids I
can." Uh, you have to do that at that level of, of owning a management company, and now you
have the, the impact that's possible.
[Speaker 0]
Um,
[Speaker 0]
and I think once I got there, there was a lot of, like, "Oh, now what?" Like, "I'm here."
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And I think in part it was, you know, I look at some of the people along the way and, um,
[Speaker 0]
wish I would've maybe done it better to, to
[Speaker 0]
have brought more people along in the process and in the journey-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm[Speaker 0]
... than, than just, like, a, "Hey, I'm driven to go do my own thing." And I think that I've tried to
then apply, okay, I'm changing industries and I'm kinda doing the thing again. And it's like, how
do you,
[Speaker 0]
um,
[Speaker 0]
how do you go about doing that in a way that builds more people up than just myself? And so
that's o- one of the things I'm really excited a- about with this last change where we just sold...
You know, a, a, a r- a huge driver of it was trying to figure out, like,
[Speaker 0]
where can we go where there's greater opportunity for our people and, like, the people that
were on our team? I had a team of about 25.
[Speaker 0]
And it was like, we certainly talked to buyers in the market who were like,
[Speaker 0]
"Look, I think you're overstaffed. Let's slash all your people and, like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... drive your EBITDA up, and we can give you more money." And, and it was just like, yeah,
that's not... I've done that. Like, I've been on that path and, like, I'm-- this isn't about that for
me.
[Speaker 0]
Um, I'm really trying to find a home, and I think I found that, uh, with Procyon, where I, where I
currently am, where it's like they believe in people. They think about it the way I do and my
partners did, and how do we bring along this team and give them the opportunity to... You
know, if you were a
[Speaker 0]
service associate, a client service associate with us, you're probably gonna be a client service
associate for a really long time 'cause we weren't growing fast enough to allow you the chance
to move, where now we're part of something bigger where it's like if you wanna get in
investments or planning or compliance or marketing or whatever, like, you have the ability to
go and kinda grow a career path for yourself. And so I think trying to learn those lessons along
the way of, again, like, how do you do right by people? How do you take care of the people who
are entrusted to you?
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
So again, if you're a manager or a leader of a, of a group of people,
[Speaker 0]if you really take to heart, and I thought what you had said earlier was like, you have people's
livelihoods, and not just their financial livelihood, but like-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 0]
hours,
... the power of when they leave work today, like, they're either gonna go spend the next 3
[Speaker 0]
you know, in a, a mess because of the way you treated them or the environment that you've
set up at work. And I think when you really take ownership of that type of, um... [smacks lips]
You know, p- power is a, one word for it, I don't know if it's the right word, but, like, you have
the ability to drastically impact someone's life.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And when you own that and, like, really own what that means, I think it, it makes you want to
be a better leader, or it should. And then as you start becoming a better leader, you start doing
the things to do that,
[Speaker 0]
you know, I think you can watch the things around you change for the better.
[Speaker 0]
And what I've seen inside of organizations is if you're an outlier of that, where your team is
thriving and doing well, like, people just quickly recognize, like, "Oh, that's different. There's
something unique-"
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
that?" Or...
... "that's happening here, and why don't... on other shifts, why isn't this shift leader doing
[Speaker 0]
And all of a sudden, now your ability to impact and influence, you know, can go to the moon
when, when you, you just think like, "Oh, I just work here. I just got this job out of college, and I
don't know."
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
"Like, I'm just doing my thing," you know?
[Speaker 1]
people-
Right. Your ability... And you do have a, a, an unbelievable amount of ability to influence other[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... whether you're a, whether you think you're a leader or you're not, right? Um, my mom would
tell me, and I think I've, I, I've told this to somebody else in the podcast before, but my mom
would tell me that it's important to be nice to everybody. And my mom is a, a very intimidating
individual by nature-
[Speaker 0]
[laughs]
[Speaker 1]
presence-
... right? When she walks in the room, she's just shy of, like, 6 foot tall. Like, she commands the
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... of the room. Like, physically you know she's there. She's got... You know, the apple doesn't
fall far from the tree. She's got a very strong personality-
[Speaker 0]
Personality
[Speaker 1]
... right?
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
And, um, but she, she would say, "It's important that you treat everybody well because you
never know who you're going to need." And she was a, you know, a bus driver, you know,
janitor, janitor. She ended up becoming, like, a, a building engineer-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... for a school district. And, um, she would say, like, "Even the person sweeping the floors and
scrubbing the toilet's important-
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
... because you never know when you're gonna be in the bathroom
[Speaker 1]
and you don't have anything to wipe your backside."[Speaker 0]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
"So don't talk shit to somebody- [laughs]
[Speaker 0]
[laughs]
[Speaker 1]
... because that may be the person that you need-
[Speaker 0]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... to take care of your own shift," right?
[Speaker 0]
Totally.
[Speaker 1]
Um, and so just, you know, she'd be like, "Just, just smile."
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
home.
Right? Everybody is there for a purpose and for a reason, and also everybody also wants to go
[Speaker 0]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Um,
[Speaker 1]
where had do you think... Like, you, when you start, you said you started making that shift from
very transactional to being a little bit more, um... I don't wanna say personable, but, like, equal,
like we're in it-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
that aha shift?
... for equal reasons, right? Was there a particular person or moment that really made you have
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm. Um, I think it was... And we, uh, so now every company I've been a part of, uh, we
utilize this framework for, uh, personality profiling. The DISC-
[Speaker 1]Okay
[Speaker 0]
... DISC personality profile.
[Speaker 1]
Ah.
[Speaker 0]
So my, my DISC profile, so D-I-S-C is the-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah
[Speaker 0]
... thing. And I am a D-I-C. That's my... So I'm a, a DIC according to this profile.
[Speaker 1]
Very nice. According to the... Okay.
[Speaker 0]
Which essentially [laughs] just means, like, the S part, component of that is, um, really what
we're talking about. Like, the person who wants to, like, serve and support and be helpful. Like,
on my profile, it literally doesn't, it doesn't come up at all. It's just like-
[Speaker 1]
It is flatlined
[Speaker 0]
... zero. I- it's dead. [laughs] And I remember, you know, when I first took this, this was probably
back in 2015 or '16, I loved it. "Oh, I'm a DIC." Like, that's just, that's just who I am, and, like,
I'm a driver. I, like, I'm gonna go get it done, and I, you know, I like to have fun and... But
people, like, I don't care. I don't care about people.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And I think it was part of that that, like, once I started moving into leadership roles where it was
like, oh, that... I mean, it can work. That, like, leadership style-
[Speaker 1]
It can
[Speaker 0]
... people do it, right? Like, that's their thing.
[Speaker 0]
But I think when I started to really think about, like, the bigger picture of what I'm trying to do, I
realized, like, okay, this, this personality profile isn't about just
[Speaker 0]
giving me permission to be me. It's more making me aware of who I am and, like, where someof my faults are. Like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... oh, that's an area I have to be better. So a great example of that is, you know, naturally I
would, I can walk into o- my office, and I, to this day, I can still do it, and walk into my office,
walk past every door on my way, and I'm just thinking about all the stuff I gotta get done, and,
like, I'm just getting to my office so I can get to work.
[Speaker 0]
And I have to n- I have to, like, make the effort
[Speaker 0]
when I park to say, like, "When you go in, go in and say hello to everybody. Ask how their
weekend was." Like, do the friendly thing.
[Speaker 1]
Ah, you're being intentional.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. And I think as that- As that shift happened for me, where it was, like, moving from, "Okay,
this is my natural state," to, "How can I intentionally be better about driving, like, relation- the,
the relational aspect of this?"
[Speaker 0]
It's funny 'cause then at each company that I've... we've done DISC at,
[Speaker 0]
um, now people are shocked. Like, we'll do, like, little exercises where we'll sh- throw up
somebody's profile and, like, guess who it is.
[Speaker 0]
And people are, like, shocked that I have no S. And it's like... But it's... I have to work really
hard. And not... And, and I think that's... that was the shift, is, like, this isn't just for the
transaction of it. It's that I've, I learned in order to get the most out of people and help them get
where they're trying to go, like, I have to pull this out of myself to help-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... them get there.
[Speaker 0]
Um, and ultimately, that helps us get where we wanna go as an organization.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And so I think that that's, again, some of the work of just, like, learning to know yourself,understand yourself, understanding how you interact in the space. Um, and so I think that, that
kind of journey of that personality profiling has helped me a lot in, like, just understanding how I
interact with the world around me.
[Speaker 1]
It's interesting 'cause I... I mean, just this last week, I took a similar-
[Speaker 0]
Okay
[Speaker 1]
... one. I... This one was, um, the Clifton-
[Speaker 0]
Okay
[Speaker 1]
... Strengths Assessment.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
And, uh, they were talking about how you need to be aware of your weaknesses, or as in apps,
we like to call them our opportunities.
[Speaker 0]
Sure.
[Speaker 1]
We need to be aware of those, but not spend our time hyper-focused on them. We should
spend our time hyper-focused on our strengths-
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
... and then use our strengths to help compensate for where we know we fall short. Uh, but I
was very similar. I... The... You know, there was the 4, like, like, color-coded areas-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... right?
[Speaker 1]
Strategy, really high. Um, you know, command, very high. Um, learning, very high.
Relationships [laughs]-
[Speaker 0]
[laughs] Like, uh-[Speaker 1]
I had nothing. My top 10 had nothing to do with relationships. And I'm like, "But I made this big
shift." I, I, I know I had a pivotal moment in my-
[Speaker 0]
Uh-huh
[Speaker 1]
... career when I was at, you know, a top logistics company managing a couple 100 people. I
had made a very pivotal change when I was out on the floor having an interaction where it's
like, "I, I have to change how I lead. If I wanna lead people better," to your point, "I have to
care."
[Speaker 0]
Do this better.
[Speaker 1]
Yes. I have to care about the people better. I have to be genuine, um, and understand, like,
what happens outside of the office does actually impact-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... what happens in the 4 walls, right? And so I was so disheartened at 1st when I read it, and I
was like, "But I've made this big shift," right? Like, "I genuinely do care, and I've, I've changed
my approach as a leader." And then as we sat in the conversations and the coach was kind of
talking through some of the stuff, I was like, "Oh."
[Speaker 0]
[laughs]
[Speaker 1]
But that's what I did, right? Like, I recognized it, and I was intentional to say, like, "Yes, I do
acknowledge these are still my weaknesses." Like, inherently-
[Speaker 0]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... they likely always will be.
[Speaker 0]
Will be. Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Right? But I can compensate for those by using my strategy or using my learning ability to say,
"Hey, I care to learn. I'm gonna care to learn about what's going on in your life."
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]"And I'm going to apply my strategy mindset to understand how can I help strategically get you
to where you wanna go and what the next level is." And so you did a very similar thing.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Right? You just leaned into those skills
[Speaker 1]
to say, "I have to be more team, let's go on the journey together."
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Not just drive... Did you get told that you're like a bull in a china shop
[Speaker 1]
or that you're too aggressive?
[Speaker 0]
Um, no. Well, so I, I worked with a lot of people who are that.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
I think mine...
[Speaker 0]
I think I was always aware enough to, um, avoid doing that.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
But it... I think then the flip side just became very, like, manipulative, right? So that was kind of-
[Speaker 1]
Ah
[Speaker 0]
... how it would show up for me, is like, I'm not just here, like, banging on the table like, "You're
gonna do it my way." It was like, "I'm gonna make all this work for me,
[Speaker 0]
but it's working for me." It's not... I, I didn't have the bigger picture behind it, and so it showed
up more in the, you know, like, sh- yeah. Like, "I'm gonna convince you to do this my way, and I
don't really care about you." And, like, it wa- it just wasn't a great spot. But I also think,
[Speaker 0]
um, in addition to raising that on your own, and especially if you're in a leadership capacity-[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... I think it's knowing what people to put around you that complement that. So it's like, okay, I
might not be great there-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
me
... but can I put people around me that are great there that can handle that part of the work for
[Speaker 0]
and can also be like a prodder? And, and I think giving them the permission to say, "Hey, they
need a little bit of a hug right now. Can you go give them a hug?" And it's like, "Yeah, you're
probably right." Like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... I'm not gonna... I'm not... I'm fine to go do that. I'm just never gonna think of it on my own
that I need to go do that.
[Speaker 1]
So you need somebody to help call you out on your shift.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, totally.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Because it's not about being the most well-rounded person-
[Speaker 0]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... because you're never gonna be the most well-rounded person, right? Your strengths are
going to be your strengths. But it's about surrounding yourself with a well-rounded-
[Speaker 0]
Team
[Speaker 1]
... that don't have the same strengths-
[Speaker 0]
Right
[Speaker 1]
... as you. Is there a time where your team has called you out on your shift, and they're like, youknow-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... "Dr. Tim, I need you to-
[Speaker 0]
Yep
[Speaker 1]
... you gotta fix this shift."
[Speaker 0]
Every day. I mean-
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
... I think that's the, that's-
[Speaker 1]
Love it
[Speaker 0]
... been the beauty of the path. So it's like, I look at all of the
[Speaker 0]
successes of my career. When I look back at them, I go, "Man, that was really cool that we were
able to do that, and that was cool that I was able to do that." And there was, like, a team
attached to all and every step. So, like, I look at my team-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... when I was in the school. I look at my team when I was at the education company. I looked at
my team on the wealth management side. And it's like... And, uh, when you look at each of the
parts of those teams, it... they're fascinating people, and it's a fascinating, like, conglomeration
of people that, um-
[Speaker 0]
I think you'd... If you looked at them objectively, you'd be like, "This doesn't work."
[Speaker 1]
It, uh, r- they're all in juxtaposition to each other, right?
[Speaker 0]
Totally.
[Speaker 1]It doesn't, it doesn't make-
[Speaker 0]
It's-
[Speaker 1]
... sense-
[Speaker 0]
And, but I-
[Speaker 1]
... but it makes sense.
[Speaker 0]
Right. And I've seen people who, like, when they come into a thing, it's like they bring their
team with them. So like, "Okay, cool, I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna turn this around, but I'm
gonna bring-"
[Speaker 1]
My whole team.
[Speaker 0]
"... I know th- all these people and they're gonna come in." And, uh, probably the thing I'm the
most proud of at every step was I never grabbed someone... I never, like, brought my people
with me. It was like I'd walk into a new thing and it's like, "Hi, nice to meet you. Hi, nice to meet
you. Hi, nice to meet you."
[Speaker 0]
And I think I was able to tap into, like, what makes people tick, how to get the most out of them,
how to put them together and make it work. And it's always a little squirrely. It's like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... I always kind of viewed leadership and organizations as an ecosystem.
[Speaker 0]
So I'd come into a new ecosystem and it's like, there was an ecosystem here before, and that
leader had this dynamic up with this group of people, and now I'm stepping into that.
[Speaker 0]
And, you know, sometimes quickly you realize, like, you're a person who doesn't fit in my
ecosystem, and we're gonna part ways pretty quick.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah.
[Speaker 0]
We just know this isn't gonna work right off the bat.
[Speaker 1]Yep.
[Speaker 0]
So I've always had a number of those where it's like people just kind of drop off.
[Speaker 0]
But then I think it's, like, getting the people who I think are like, "No, we can do this together.
Um, how do we develop our own ecosystem?" And there's a balance in it. And I've watched then
at each turn when I've left to go do the next thing,
[Speaker 0]
you know, that ecosystem kind of... It can stay together, but it also can kind of, like, it just
morphs. It turns into a new ecosystem.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And so I think that is a big driver for me as I start to either enter new scenarios of like, "Okay,
let me understand this ecosystem." I think that's why in this role that I currently sit in, it's so
unique, because in all those moves, it was like I was moving into the leadership spot, seat. And
this is the f- this is the 1st time in,
[Speaker 0]
you know, uh, 12, 13 years that I'm moving into an ecosystem where it's like, okay, I'm not the
leader. That's okay. Like, how do I now recalibrate? 'Cause I'm at a different level
[Speaker 0]
to say, like, "How can I fit in here-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... not in that role?" Um, and it's been fun. It's been, like, kind of a challenge of just kind of, like,
in some ways it feels like there's, like, this big cyclical thing of life happening, you know?
[laughing] Like-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... in my career path, it's like I'm paralleling things from 12 years ago.
[Speaker 1]
Hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And, and now I have the opportunity to live out things I've helped teach other people to do who
are living in an ecosystem.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.[Speaker 0]
And it's like, how do you not just survive your ecosystem, but how do you thrive in it? How do
you, how do you contribute to it and how do you benefit from it? Like, that symbiotic
relationship between those 2 things where it's like you're not extracting and you're not just
dumping in too much, and where can you find the place where you're thriving, your
ecosystem's thriving? And now it's cool to be a part of that where I'm just part of a larger team
and, you know, navigating a new, a new ecosystem. It's cool.
[Speaker 1]
It's just a, it's a new challenge.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Do you find that you love challenges?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, probably too much, [chuckling] you know?
[Speaker 1]
I, I, I, uh, I resonate with that. Like, I would gravitate towards the more messed up something is-
[Speaker 0]
There you go
[Speaker 1]
... the, the more fun it is, right? [laughing] Because we get to fix it together.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. Right.
[Speaker 1]
Right? We get to build it. We get to design it. The world is an endless amount of possibilities
that we get to solve-
[Speaker 0]
Totally
[Speaker 1]
... as a team. When things are a well-oiled running machine, I find that's when I start to get
bored and I'm like-
[Speaker 0]
Right, start looking around a little bit.
[Speaker 1]
Yes. What's, what's the next challenge?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]What's the next obstacle? Because not that you've, if you don't... Not that I ever truly felt like I
mastered anything, but I felt like, okay, I've got a good enough grasp on it. We fixed a couple
things. Like, the team is off, they're running, they're better off. You know, it's time for a new set
of eyes-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... because we, we become biased in our current roles and we grow these blinders, right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
So it's interesting, because a lot of what you're saying, I'm like, "Oh-
[Speaker 0]
[laughing] Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... I feel that."
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I get that, right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Like, the, the more messed up it is, or if it doesn't exist at all-
[Speaker 0]
Love
[Speaker 1]
... love it. Yeah.
[Speaker 0]
So it's like a big open playing field.
[Speaker 1]
Yes.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
very creative-
Like, you can be as creative as you want to be. 'Cause I'm not... I would say innately I'm not a[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
... person. Like, that side of my brain just
[Speaker 1]
is broken. Um, but I tap into it in that, in that way.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Right? Like, we can fix an operation. We can put synergies in. We can, you know, m- make it
lean. We can start with 5Sing. Like, like-
[Speaker 0]
Sure
[Speaker 1]
it, so.
... like, let's start at the very fundamentals and, and work our way out and completely change
[Speaker 0]
I feel like I heard somebody say to me, they asked, like, what my skill or superpower is, and I, I-
[Speaker 1]
Ooh, yeah
[Speaker 0]
... I gave my, like, answer, which I don't think was a very good one.
[Speaker 1]
[laughing]
[Speaker 0]
And then they knew me well enough that they were like, "No, you know what I think it is?" And I
said, "What?" They said, "You're like a, a little kid that will just sit in the middle of the room with
a ball of yarn and un- and unravel it. Like, it's all knotted and connected."
[Speaker 1]
Uh-huh.
[Speaker 0]
"And you'll just sit there and you'll spend all the time just, like, getting to the point where
you've stretched it all out and gotten it back there." And they said, "I think that's what... You
can go into... You go into places where it's just a big ball of yarn and you're like, 'Oh, cool. Let
me unwind this thing.'" [laughing]
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]And you can, like, unwind it all and then, you know, make it useful by doing the stuff that you
actually can do with it. I thought, "That's actually, like, a probably a pretty, like, apt description
of how I think I've gone through-
[Speaker 1]
Good metaphor
[Speaker 0]
... most of my career."
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
Like, "Oh, cool. This thing is super useful and it could be really good." And it's... You know, I, I
think I've learned in myself I'm not a take it from the beginning, like, I'm gonna be a startup guy
and, like, all the grind that it takes to start something from scratch.
[Speaker 1]
It's hard.
[Speaker 0]
Um, but I'm like, uh, you hand me something that's pretty good and I think I can turn it into
great. Um, and so I think going into organizations that have some, some structure, but then
being able to go in and, like, tweak and refine and, like, look and change and, again, like,
understand what makes people tick, put them in the right environments to thrive, get them all
rolling in a, in a direction towards a common goal, um-
[Speaker 0]
... ultimately, I think that's, like, what I'm, you know, I've been put on the earth to do. So if I go,
keep finding ways to explore and exercise that muscle.
[Speaker 1]
25-year-old you-
If you can go back throughout all of these, you know, ventures that you've done and you talk to
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
... what do you say?
[Speaker 0]
Whoo. Um, what would I say to 25-year-old me? Hmm. Go to law school instead-
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
... instead of doctorate. Um, I think it probably would have been some of the advice I gave kind
of at the beginning of just, like, uh, that reinforcement of,
[Speaker 0]one, like, be really clear about what you want-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... out of life, um,
[Speaker 0]
and then just pursue it. Like, get after it as hard as you can to, to make it happen. Um,
[Speaker 0]
and I think along the way, I can see paths where it's like you think you get to the top of the
mountain, and you start getting distracted or things are too, running too well, and you're kinda
like...
[Speaker 0]
Um,
[Speaker 0]
but I-- And I think some of that was just a lack of focus of what, what I was focused on. And so I
think that, uh, when I look at the 25-year-old me, it's like, yeah, absolutely. Like, just
[Speaker 0]
m- be locked in on what it is that you want out of life, and there's a lot of ways you can get
distracted from that. And so don't, you know, don't chase those other things and, and kinda
stay on the path. And, um, but I, you know, in some ways, I look back and I think, like, you
know,
[Speaker 0]
it's pretty cool. I think it's a cool story, and I think the...
[Speaker 0]
I've always said I, you know, I never wanted to get to life where I have no regrets. You know, it's
just like I, whatever, I, I took the opportunities-
[Speaker 1]
No regrets
[Speaker 0]
... in front of me. Right. [chuckling] Um, and so I think that's kind of the... Yeah, I look back and
think all of these different situations have built me to where I am today. Um, and then I think,
like, looking ahead, I, I look at... I kind of draw some inspiration from there's so many people in
this world who
[Speaker 0]
did these massive, like, benefits to society and the con- contributions to society at 40, at 45, at
60. Like, there's no timeline-
[Speaker 1]
No, there is none
[Speaker 0]... that, um, you know. It's like I could come up with a great idea in 15 years that's a life,
world-altering thing, and it's not like you have to have it figured out at 22 and you have to
figure it out at 28 and tw- 35, you should, your life should look like this.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
company now,
I think it's... You know, I can sit here today and go, "I'm in a great spot. I, I work for a great
[Speaker 0]
and, you know, this future is gonna be good." And, you know, maybe when I'm 50, I go branch
off and do something else in a totally different space, and I can change the world there. I can
change the world here. It's like I think that the possibilities are endless, so I think that's pretty
cool.
[Speaker 1]
You know, you mentioned earlier, sometimes it takes a little bit of luck.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
What would you say or have you had to say to people that are like, "Oh, you know what? You're
just lucky. Your success is just 'cause you're-"
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. [clears throat]
[Speaker 1]
"... you're just so lucky." Right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
What do you say to that? 'Cause that one grinds my gears when I get told that.
[Speaker 0]
No. What's the... It's... I, I should be better at m- keeping these sayings. It's like, um,
opportunity... No. It's when luck and preparation meet, opportunity is when luck and
preparation meet or something like that. And that, to me, it's like there's, there may be an
element of luck in some of it, um, but-
[Speaker 1]
But you work
[Speaker 0]
... you know, until you're... Yeah, until you're up from 10 PM to 3 AM writing a dissertation for a
year and a half, outside of buying a business and then being responsible for leading all the
people. Like,[Speaker 0]
going to board meetings, multiple board meetings a week, spending the time and hours away
from f- my family and, and,
[Speaker 0]
tremendous-
uh, it's... Sure, it can look like luck or this was easy or it just happened, but there's, there's a
[Speaker 1]
You gotta make sacrifices
[Speaker 0]
... amount of work that goes into, you know, wanting to have the life that I wanted. And it was
like, yeah, you gotta put in the time. You gotta put in the time. And putting in the time isn't...
doesn't mean it's gonna happen. It just means it, it definitely won't happen if you don't, you
know?
[Speaker 1]
Fair. Right, right. You can't predict the future, but if you aren't willing to do it-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... then it certainly won't.
[Speaker 0]
It's def- it, it definitely-
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]
... won't happen for you. And so I think that, you know, I think I have 5 graduate degrees, um,
which again, I think we're all... I, I don't... Could I have not had any of those and done
everything I did? Probably.
[Speaker 1]
Maybe. Yeah.
[Speaker 0]
But I think it's also, like, the part of the mentality of I'm just gonna keep working. I'm just gonna
keep grinding at this, and I don't ever wanna be in a position where I, you know, I needed
something that I...
[Speaker 0]
There was an opportunity that I had to pass on because I didn't have-
[Speaker 1]
What you needed
[Speaker 0]
... the right credential set or... And then I think that just transitioned into life in general of justI'm gonna
[Speaker 0]
put myself in the position to have the opportunities by having enough rounded experience that,
like, I'm, I'm able to have the conversation or push into the thing, um,
[Speaker 0]
where it's, like, having the experience with business. Or even if I haven't had it, it's m- meeting
someone who has shared with me their experience, so I know, like, I don't have to make that
mistake 'cause I've listened to their mistake.
[Speaker 1]
You can learn from it, right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah. So-
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, a tremendous amount of work that has to go into most things. Um, and it's true that, you
know, nothing that's easy is worth... Nothing worth having comes easy or, you know, that's just
a real thing.
[Speaker 1]
Right. It takes a lot of hard work. You have to give up some, some things, right? There's
sacrifices that, that go along with that. Um, I was speaking the other day with somebody that,
uh, there is no true such thing as, like, work-life balance or, like, you can have it-
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 1]
... you can have it all, right? Like, you've had to sacrifice in some regards one way or another-
[Speaker 0]
Totally
[Speaker 1]
... to, to have some of that success, but you had the success.
[Speaker 0]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
And it wasn't luck. It was those sacrifices. It was your hard work. It was your drive, your
ambition, and you could just, just kept grinding away. And you continue to grind away.
[Speaker 0]
Right. You got it.
[Speaker 1]Right? There's, there's no end in sight. We might be in law school soon-
[Speaker 0]
No end in sight
[Speaker 1]
... from what I understand. [laughs]
[Speaker 0]
Well, I look at my last month and a half, and, you know, I've been on the road,
[Speaker 0]
uh, like every week for the last 4 weeks, and then I'll be on the w- road for the next couple
weeks. Um, and I think it, it was... You know, there's, like, an intentional, like, you gotta stay in
the grind. And it's so easy to get comfortable and just like, "Oh, no, I'm gonna just coast-"
[Speaker 1]
It's very easy to get comfortable
[Speaker 0]
... and kinda, like, settle in. And, um, you know, I think for me especially, like, joining a new
company, it was like, how can I...
[Speaker 0]
One, it's, there's a level of, like, the f- this is probably something I should work through with my
therapist, but, like, the constant need to prove yourself. So it's like-
[Speaker 1]
That's, that's some real shift.
[Speaker 0]
You know, like, all right, I'm in a new group. They don't know me. All right, go grind it out.
[Speaker 1]
That's the personality-
[Speaker 0]
You know?
[Speaker 1]
... right there. Right?
[Speaker 0]
And so I think that, you know, for me, that's, it's manifesting itself in that, where it's just like,
yep, I'll go be at things and engaged and a part of it and, you know, how do I grind and bring in
more business for our team? And it's just all the things that it's... But it could be easy to just,
"Hey, I sold my company and, like, you know, I got a little runway here where I can just kinda,
you know-"
[Speaker 1]
Coast.
[Speaker 0]"... hang out and I'll just do whatever." And that's just not in me. So for me, it's like, how do I
get out there and
[Speaker 0]
top.
cool, this is a new mountain to go climb, and I'll go climb it, and we'll see what happens at the
[Speaker 1]
Love it. Um,
[Speaker 1]
I have really enjoyed our time.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Before we close it out, I wanna ask you, is there any advice that you wanna share? I know
you've, you've got a book.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Right? The Secret Sauce.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
What, what do you wanna promote here to our listeners?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, I think advice, I'd, I'd lean into, you know, people who sit in leadership seats. Um,
[Speaker 0]
and I think the advice would be great people around you and then invest in helping make them
better. And, and that opens up, like, a world of opportunity for you just in and of itself. Um, I just
think over and over in my career, you know, you as a singular l- as a leader can become a
singular point of failure if you let yourself, where you have to be involved in every decision and
you don't empower the people around you to handle things.
[Speaker 1]
Ugh. I, we don't, I don't jive with that kind of leader.
[Speaker 0]
And so it's the more you can put people in a position to succeed and then support that growth
and then give them opportunities to fail and learn from that and, you know, keep your
guardrails around it to make sure it's not a catastrophic failure. But I think most things in life
aren't. And it's like you just...
[Speaker 0]
The more you can do that and the more you can[Speaker 0]
build that value in other people, um, you'll be shocked at how far that can take you, you know?
And it certainly will take you a lot farther than you could ever go by yourself. So that's, that
would be... If I could sum it all up for me, that's definitely the thing that I've learned that I'd like
to pass on, for sure.
[Speaker 1]
I'm having a hard time closing this out because I just-
[Speaker 0]
[laughs]
[Speaker 1]
... you sa- y- y- you mentioned, like, allowing your team to fail.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
And I think that's so important as a leader, right? You do need those guardrails, right? You need
to allow your team to fail in a non-catastrophic way that they can actually learn from it.
[Speaker 0]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 1]
Right? As a leader, you're behind them. You're gonna prevent-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah
[Speaker 1]
... anything terrible from happening. You know if you have to explain it, you're gonna be the
one to explain it. You're gonna own, own it. They're not gonna be the one to own it.
[Speaker 1]
But you have to let them-
[Speaker 0]
Experience it.
[Speaker 1]
Because there's nothing-
[Speaker 0]
Better.
[Speaker 1]
There's, there really isn't, right?
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, there's...
[Speaker 0]Because, uh, what, what I see so often is it's easy to...
[Speaker 0]
Well, I know, like, I, I can look at a thing and go, "Yes, if you stay on that path, this is gonna
happen and then this is gonna happen and then it's gonna fall apart."
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
And that's great that I can do that. And then the person who's the one carrying it out is just like,
"Oh, okay." Well, now they've just, like, shut their brain off to like, "Well, you'll, you'll tell me if
I-"
[Speaker 1]
They don't have that intuition.
[Speaker 0]
Right. But what happens is once they do it and you watch their face when all of a sudden it's
like they come into your office and are saying, "Hey, something just happened." And you're like-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... "What?" And then they tell you. And, and, you know, in your mind you have to go through
like, "Okay, this isn't that big of a deal, but I can really... This is a moment."
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
Or like, "Maybe this is a big deal," and you're kind of having to stop from freaking out.
[Speaker 0]
But it is that where now there's, like, a hyperfocus to, okay, what happened that led us to hear-
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm
[Speaker 0]
... this? Okay, well, this can't ever happen again. So how do we make sure this doesn't? Well,
yeah, I should have done this, I should have done this, I should have done this. Okay, great.
Now as we walk through that, you know, we're on the other side of it, and
[Speaker 0]
now we're-
hopefully it's a mistake that never gets made again or it's... Because that lesson's learned and
[Speaker 1]
Right
[Speaker 0]... onto the next thing.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
Um-
[Speaker 1]
Do you ever look at somebody on your team when they come to you and they're like, "Hey, I
messed some shift up." [laughs]
[Speaker 0]
Right. [laughs]
[Speaker 1]
Or [laughs] do you ever look at them and have that moment when they're done and be like, "I
know."
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
"It's okay." And the... 'Cause I, 'cause I've done that where I've let, you know, a buyer make a
mistake and they've come to me and I'm like, "I know." And they're like, "H- how do you know?"
I'm like,
[Speaker 1]
"Because I knew-
[Speaker 0]
It's-
[Speaker 1]
... it was gonna happen, but you needed-"
[Speaker 0]
To go through it.
[Speaker 1]
"You needed to go through it."
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
And they're like, "But how..." And then you, you walk the steps back and they're like, "Oh, I
should have realized..." Yep.
[Speaker 0]
Right.
[Speaker 1]But you'll never do that again. And then you're gonna teach the next person, and they're gonna
teach the next person. So, uh, I'm not, I'm not cold-hearted believing that I allow that.
[Speaker 0]
Nope.
[Speaker 1]
Okay.
[Speaker 0]
Not, not cold, cold-hearted.
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
I think there... it's, it's such a fine line that I think you walk the whole path, because
[Speaker 0]
learn.
I think it's like I'm always here for you if you need me. But if, if I'm pulling too much, you don't
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
Or, and if I'm pushing too much, if I'm, like, pushing too much information to you, it's, it's-
[Speaker 1]
It's-
[Speaker 0]
... the same thing.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 0]
And so I think they-
[Speaker 1]
It's too much, you fall apart.
[Speaker 0]
It's like I wanna be here where you might struggle with it and instead of going from A to B in a
straight line, you're kinda taking this winding path.
[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.
[Speaker 0]
But at some point along that journey, you're gonna realize, like,
[Speaker 0]maybe I need some help. And if, if I give you help too early, then now it's my idea, it's not
yours, and you're not necessarily bought into it.
[Speaker 1]
Yep.
[Speaker 0]
But if you come to me with, "Hey, this is what I'm trying to do, but I seem to keep getting off
track," and I'm able to kind of plant that information there of like, "Well, have you considered
this?" Or, "D- what do you think about this?" Or-
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Why do you think that happens?
[Speaker 0]
... and ask the right questions-
[Speaker 1]
Mm
[Speaker 0]
... they'll eventually get to the right answer. That's the answer I want, but they got to come to it
versus me telling it to them. And now they're really bought in 'cause it's their idea and they
wanna go carry it out. And so I think that, to me, is like, you know, probably from those early
manipulative leadership days-
[Speaker 1]
[laughs]
[Speaker 0]
... I learned, like, the lesson of if it's their idea, they're gonna do it way better than if it's my
idea. But how do I get my ideas in their head? And it's like, how do we do that dance?
[Speaker 1]
It's a balancing act.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
It's a true balancing act.
[Speaker 0]
Yep.
[Speaker 1]
Well, Dr. Tim, it has been a pleasure. We've t-
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, thanks for having me.
[Speaker 1]
You know, we've talked about imposter syndrome, we've talked about being a great leader, andthe whole gamut in between. Thank you for everything.
[Speaker 0]
Yeah, no, thanks for having me. This was great.
[Speaker 1]
And until next time, see you on the floor.